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On Documentaries and Bullying (73 comments)
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On Documentaries and Bullying

Monday, June 06, 2005 - 08:37 AM

Okay, some background. There's this documentary called "Adventures Into Digital Comics," you see, where the interviews were all done years ago. Three years ago. On the internet, three years is exactly how long it takes for everything you know to be proved wrong. I remember them coming up to me at my very first Comic-Con, shining bright lights in my face and asking me for wisdom. I have no idea what I said. It was probably a bunch of ridiculous crap along the lines of this. If any of it ended up in the movie, I will be happy to sit and watch it and laugh at myself. Because even if you are ambushed by a bunch of roving morons with a camera, you need to take responsibility for the things you say. If you claim to be an expert on a subject (and I have some experience with webcomics at this point, eight and a half years worth), then you need to be able to either defend yourself from criticism or you need to be able to look back and laugh about it and learn from the experience.

Anyway, Penny-Arcade did a hilarious send up of the whole thing. I knew it was coming, because Tycho and I had chatted about it the day before it went up. Tycho is the sort of guy who has turned down paid speaking opportunities at universities because he simply doesn't believe that he should be paid for talking about exactly this sort of thing. He makes jokes about video games for a living, and he knows exactly how seriously that should be taken. He does, however, take the business of telling those jokes deadly seriously. Anyone who makes webcomics part of their living should.

So, as usual, there have been some followups to PA's lead. Scott Kurtz had a great rant on the subject with which I wholeheartedly concur (there's a sentence I never thought I would type). There have been comics written about it. And Eric Snark (who is either a webcomics blogger or not a webcomics blogger, no one is entirely sure, least of all the man himself) has chimed in with this 5000 word piece of mind-numbing drivel taking PA to task because they were mean. Mean to Cat Garza, who, it must be said, is a nice guy who has drank a bit too much of the Modern Tales/McCloud Kool Aid, along with some other substances that we have been unable to identify (or procure for ourselves) as of yet.

This is bullshit, Eric. Total bullshit and I'm calling you on it. When people make public statements about a subject that they claim to be experts on, they can expect to have those claims challenged. That goes for Cat Garza, and it goes for you. You want to play with big boys? Expect it. "Mean" has nothing to do with it and it's a pitiful defense. PA is all about the "mean" and I wouldn't have them any other way. That's what makes them so goddamned entertaining, and why they are able to support their families. Cat is not a deer, and neither are you, despite how poorly you were treated in elementary school.

Cat Garza and the rest of the MT artists are so hypnotized by McCloud and Manley that they don't stop to think that their business model, ther digital revolution isn't really taking off at all. Micropayments and walled-off content are not revolutionizing the industry. They're creating a group of artists who are justifying their choices by huddling in groups and spouting platitudes so they can stay warm at night when the gas bills go unpaid. Hunting for firewood may not have much artistic merit in it, but it keeps you warm. They would do well to heed the message that PA is sending them. Optimism doesn't pay the bills.

Cat and the other folks think that free content is somehow beneath them, somehow offensive to their enlightened sensibilities. It is this prejudice that keeps them from really getting it.

But none of this has anything to do with anything. The real villains here are a bunch of filmmakers releasing material from three years ago and calling it cutting edge, getting a bunch of cartoonists all huffy and puffy. You shouldn't do that, filmmakers! Cartoonists are easily disturbed. Be nice to them!

The lovely part of this is that I will be releasing conent via BitPass (McCloud's pet micropayments system) in a few days (if we can get it working, which we, a couple of guys who have 20 years of website building experience between us, cannot do so far), making myself into a massive hypocrite. Yes, there was "the bet", and I have to do it, but I'm also curious to see how it pans out. Because if my calculations are correct, even "wildly successful" on this particular project will still not pay the bills. I'll share the numbers with you when we're done, and we can figure out exactly where it fails.

jon
jon

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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 09:34 AM (#27679)
Also, before anyone takes offense at anything I've said, I like all these people. I like all the people I just trash-talked about. I've met them and they are excellent people, some of the best I've met. But that shouldn't stop us from having this discussion, and if you take it personally, then I apologize.

We're mostly adults, I don't think any of us will end up with a broken heart over this.
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mcgrue
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 3, Insightful)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:19 AM (#27680)
In Response to jon (#27679):

Well, if you bruise Eric's feelings, I'm sure a few signed, mounted strips will win you back...

It's weird that Burns felt the need to play the apologist. I guess all bets are off and P-A is supposed to not play the shitcock game since they're part of the Webcomics Big Brother program?

The interesting bit to me is that it's Voice of Reason Tycho doing the rant, and not Likes to Yell Gabe.

It's the internet, and people say mean things on it. Sometimes, big internet people say mean things on it about little internet people. And because of the magic of hyperlinks and search engines, when this happens it's still an attentionspan coup for the person being made fun of.

P-A readers by and large, I'd warrant, would not've been paying attention nor cared about this documentary until it was mocked and ranted upon. What is the proverb about bad publicity, again?

Which brings me to the real point of my post. Eric's obviously a smart guy. Sometimes off a little, but who isn't. His essays can be entertaining, and I'm enjoying where his comic's going. He likes P-A. He knows their modus operandi. He knows that the mockery and the mean is what makes them funny. And he calls them to task on this in a harsh and belittling manner?

He's even mentioned recently how he's gone into advertising mode for Gossamer Commons. This isn't real outrage. It can't be if he really was a fan of the Fruit Fucker's Father.

This is Tycho bait.

I wonder if it'll work.
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demiurgent
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:22 AM (#27682)
In Response to mcgrue (#27680):

This is Tycho bait.
   
  I wonder if it'll work.
I'm so far off Tycho's radar he needs FAA course corrections to find me. I expect Tycho, if he even reads my thing, will decide he doesn't care even slightly.
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demiurgent
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:28 AM (#27683)
Actually, I was treated moderately well in elementary school. In part because I was somewhat larger than most people, admittedly.

I fully understand that they're the "big boys" and this isn't junior varsity. I fully expect that... well, actually I expect they won't care even slightly about what I've said. If they do, they'll crush me like... some kind of huge crushing thing.

Cut me some slack. I didn't get much sleep.

Anyway, the fact that they called bullshit on Digital Strips isn't the point. Scott Kurtz called bullshit on it too, and I have no argument at all with his essay.

But just because the PA guys have this as their stock in trade doesn't mean watching them kick Cat Garza in the balls and call it funny makes it any less mean. They could have been funny -- even savagely funny -- without posting Garza's picture and mocking him.

I've seen brutally honest before. This was bullying.
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demiurgent
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:33 AM (#27684)
In Response to jon (#27679):

No personally-taken-being-stuff here on my side. I still owe you finely tuned ethyl at some point.
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jon
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:42 AM (#27685)
In Response to demiurgent (#27683):

But just because the PA guys have this as their stock in trade doesn't mean watching them kick Cat Garza in the balls and call it funny makes it any less mean. They could have been funny -- even savagely funny -- without posting Garza's picture and mocking him.

They could have, but I'm glad they didn't. I can't see any way in which that would have improved the strip. If Cat didn't want his statements challenged, he shouldn't have spoken on camera.

Has Cat even expressed a need for folks to come to his defense? He doesn't seem like the type to me to take great offense to something like this, but perhaps I was wrong.
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gtyrrell
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 3, Super-Genius)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:46 AM (#27687)
The more times I have to hit the "PgDn" key when reading Eric Burns, the more likely I'm going to have the words, "drama queen" running through my head. This was an 8-PgDn rant, and the only thing I could think of at the end was, "He couldn't have said that in 250 words?" Here, I'll try now:
Cat Garza believes in what he’s doing, even if it doesn’t work out the way that he wants it to all the time. This passion means that if he’s talking about something he loves doing, you aren’t allowed to criticize or make fun of him.

Tycho and Gabe have achieved commercial success, which means that they’re now The Man, and for them to point out the foibles of anybody who isn’t another iteration of The Man is mean and evil and bad. We can tell they’re mean and evil and bad because Kurtz agreed with them this time, and even if this is the one time he’s not ranting like he’s off his meds, he must be wrong.

I like Sports Night. Anybody who calls shenanigans on me for this tirade is a bully because I’m pre-emptively declaring myself to be the victim. So there.
One forty-three, one forty-four, one forty-five. Still plenty of room for padding. I'll go back later to work in some tea & sympathy, and tasty, tasty biscuits.
 
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rstevens
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 10:56 AM (#27689)
I think I'm about as anti-elite and anti-high-art as one can be ... I just wish this kind of discussion could start out in a more even-handed way. I don't buy into everything the McCloud Crowd comes up with, but Scott's "Understanding Comics" was still a big part of my deciding to become a cartoonist. He will get mad props and personal defense until the end of time for that.
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jon
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:00 AM (#27690)
In Response to rstevens (#27689):

Scott's "Understanding Comics" was still a big part of my deciding to become a cartoonist. He will get mad props and personal defense until the end of time for that.

No disagreements there, I use that book like a reference manual.
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demiurgent
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:17 AM (#27692)
In Response to gtyrrell (#27687):

You forgot one bit:

"Artists have been claiming forever that the Man is holding them down, but it's not actually true. Documentaries about art always bring this point up."

So that fills it out a little more -- gets us closer to 250. Yay!
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Lonely Goatherd
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 0)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:21 AM (#27693)
In Response to jon (#27690):

So . . .let's see. . .because he's sincere, he can't produce crap?

Or because he's sincere, you can't hate his crap?

I attribute that line of thinking to people who have pictures of kittens hanging from things by their tiny claws.

-sandy b.
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deerboy
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 3, Funny)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 11:47 AM (#27695)
In Response to Lonely Goatherd (#27693):

So . . .let's see. . . because you signed your name, you didn't post anonymously?

Or because you posted anonymously, it was a bold gesture to sign your name?

I attribute that line (sic) of thinking to people who have kittens imbedded in their heads.

-d b.


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demiurgent
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2, Funny)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 12:20 PM (#27697)
In Response to deerboy (#27695):

Do you hear them, Clarice? Do you hear the mewing of the embedded head-kittens?
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Rich
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 12:34 PM (#27698)
Well the link to the trailer is dead so trying to understand everyone's opinions without seeing it is making my hair hurt.

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JoshM
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:01 PM (#27705)
In Response to jon (#27690):

Oh yes, that's a really cool history book.
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:18 PM (#27706)
Not sure why my name comes up in the above (I'm in the movie, but not in the trailer -- I think what I said to the docu guys was that I wasn't particularly knowledgeable or interested in the infinite canvas stuff, that they need to talk to McCloud -- I was/am all about the distro and business opportunities the web affords -- but I don't remember for sure; it's been three years since I spoke to them).

I definitely don't believe that the free model for webcomics is "beneath" anybody -- interestingly enough, it seems to me that it's always the free model people who do the declaring about What Is Exactly Right, and What Shouldn't Be Done Under Any Circumstance. But then it's the pay model people who are stuck up and pompous and pretentious. Weird.

What I have noticed is that the free model seems to work best for comics that have a possibility for mass audience appeal, and that the pay model seems to work best for comics that, for whatever reason, are going to appeal to a smaller number of people. If you believe that the latter kinds of comics should have a chance at making some money, I don't understand why you'd be hostile to the pay model. It's not like the popular comics are hurt by the existing of same. We're over here on our block, doing our thing, and you're over there on yours. And whatever.

Anyway. No offense was taken by your post, though, of course. I know you. We're good.

Joey
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jon
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:38 PM (#27707)
In Response to joeymanley (#27706):

For some reason, I always see these discussions framed in the context of business model camps. Because the people involved always line up the same way, no matter what the discussion is. I wonder why that is? Probably some lizard-brain thing, our subconcsious personality types showing their true colors. Or is it just schoolyard cliques engaged in slap-fights?

I think the PA guys were justified in making the comic they made. To say that they should stop making comics that are mean is just silly. The reason people are telling them to be quiet and allow the Appointed Spokespeople to continue to be the voice of comics online is because other voices might threaten the business models they are advocating (and you are both an owner of one of those business models and one of it's biggest advocates, which is why you are included above).

The easiest way to stymie innovation is to tell the innovators to shut up. We may pretend that this is not what we're doing, that we are discussing artistic merit, but the initial issue that Cat was discussing, and the bit that PA was discussing, is that Cat said in the video that he was worried that the opportuity to publish on the internet might somehow be taken away from him, by whom I am not sure. (Yes, that is a run-on sentence.) But the fact that he was concerned that he somehow needed permission to put his comics on the internet leads me to believe that he has a warped sense of just exactly what the internet is and how people can use it to circumvent traditional models of publication.

How did he possibly come to think that this was a potential problem?

Would it benefit someone to make Cat think that he needed the blessing of a larger entity to make his work available to the public?


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joeymanley
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:43 PM (#27708)
In Response to jon (#27707):

I was just responding to the "free model is beneath them" bit in your post, Jon, not to the P-A comic or the Websnark rant. P-A is P-A and Websnark is Websnark, and both are world-class content items with moments of utter predictability.

Is P-A a little mean? Yup.

Is Websnark a little oversensitive? Yup.

Is cat garza a little naive in a loveable, hippieish way? You betcha!

Joey
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jon
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:47 PM (#27709)
In Response to joeymanley (#27708):

Gotcha. That bit was mainly there to stir up trouble. Everyone has become way too complacent recently.
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demiurgent
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 03:54 PM (#27710)
In Response to joeymanley (#27708):

Is Websnark a little oversensitive? Yup.

I prefer the term "Bitchy McWusspants," thank you.
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Lonely Goatherd
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1, Obnoxious)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 04:16 PM (#27711)
"They could have been funny -- even savagely funny -- without posting Garza's picture and mocking him." "They could have, but I'm glad they didn't. I can't see any way in which that would have improved the strip. If Cat didn't want his statements challenged, he shouldn't have spoken on camera." Thing is, there's a difference to attacking someone's argument and their photograph. One is acceptable and often necessary. The other unforgivable. There is no merit in it and only limited funny. This is what soured the whole thing for me.
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zamphir
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 05:09 PM (#27714)
In Response to joeymanley (#27708):

J-Man:
P-A is P-A and Websnark is Websnark, and both are world-class content items

Well.

You're half right... ;-)

(The Other)J-Ro:
How did he possibly come to think that this was a potential problem?

Umm....

Too much dope?

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jjacques
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 05:15 PM (#27717)
This whole deal just kind of makes my head want to explode.

"OH NO SOMEBODY SAID MEAN THINGS ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE... ON THE INTERNET!!! "

Near as my tiny dinosaur brain can tell, that's what this boils down to. I do not understand why people are taking it so seriously.

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zamphir
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 2)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 05:42 PM (#27718)
In Response to jjacques (#27717):

I do not understand why people are taking it so seriously.

Hey, look!

People suck!

Who knew?

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jjacques
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Re: On Documentaries and Bullying (Score: 1)
posted Monday, June 06, 2005 - 05:59 PM (#27719)
In Response to zamphir (#27718):

Oh man, they DO?

SHIT!

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